Buying a Used Truck Part 4 - Right Toyota Sucks - Total Victory

Last Thursday (a week ago today), Erin called me from work and said that she had been calling around to car dealerships in Scottsdale and asking if they had any trucks in our price range. After hearing our price range, most did not call back.

When Erin called Right Toyota in Scottsdale the person she spoke with told her that we would not get a bank to approve us for a loan amount of $8000 because it was too low. This, of course, is a load of shit, as we have subsequently obtained a loan for much less than that, but this is what the dude told Erin and they amicably ended the phone call. Erin had stress how we were not interested in negotiating or haggling, so presumably this person didn't want to waste his time on us.

Not long after, a manager from Right Toyota named John called Erin back and said that they had "several vehicles" including "Tacomas" and "Nissans" and that they were in our price range. Erin re-emphasized what she had told the first salesman. We were not interested in haggling - our budget was set and that if we came up there and they did not have a vehicle in our price range it would be waste of their time and our time. John again reassured Erin that he understood and that they could help us, so we agreed to go to Right Toyota after work.

When Erin arrived home, we first went to Desert School Credit Union and obtained our own financing. This is a fantastic idea. We got a great interest rate and they were very nice and helpful. It's also a great bargaining tool. Furthermore, auto dealerships have deals with Desert Schools (and, presumably other credit unions) that allow the dealerships to handle everything for you so you don't have to run back and forth to the credit union. Also, many dealerships have special representatives, usually the fleet sales or Internet sales people, who are your V.I.P. sales correspondent. They understand the banks terms and they can help you more efficiently.

After getting pre-approved, we drove all the way to North Scottsdale (over 1/2 hour from Tempe) to Right Toyota. At this point Erin has already driven to and from North Phoenix that day, an around-trip journey of over 1 hour and she has not eaten any dinner. So when we arrived at Right Toyota we expected to be shown the trucks on our range, make a decision, and be out of there.

When we got there the person we had an appointment with was gone. Strike 1. We waited around for several minutes until we were paired up with a salesman named Corey. Corey seemed nice at first, but he was turned out to be a condescending, arrogant jerk. Strike 2. One of the first things Corey brought up to us was that he knew our price limit. He then lead us to the used truck section. Things quickly began looking bleak. There were 3 used Tacomas, the oldest of which was a 2004 and $19,999 - only $11,000 above our budget! Strike 3. The other trucks were a Frontier ($13,999) and a Mazda ($12,999). We were immediately skeptical. After looking at the used trucks out front, Corey took us on a ride around the lot to see what else they had. They didn't have anything else.

We all returned inside while Corey went to ask the illusive John, the manager Erin had spoken to, what he was referring to. We never did see John (coward). After this wasted time, we returned to the trucks out front.

The Frontier was not automatic, so that quickly disqualified it. The Mazda seemed nice, but was way out of our price range. Corey then began trying to sell us on the Mazda. He said he knew our price range and that we could work with the price. We again voiced our skepticism that a truck for $12,999 would go for $8000, but he reassured us that deal could be met and so we agreed to test drive it.

We test drove the truck amidst Corey's snide remarks. I think he resented being put in a situation where he was sure not to make a sale and I think he could sense that we were skeptical, and, if things didn't go our way, we could get disgruntled. The best way to avoid making a sale, of course, is to make snide comments. Great work, Corey.

The truck drove well, so we returned inside talk about buying it. We sat down at a desk. We had been in such situations a lot recently, so our patience was gone quickly. Of course, Corey took longer to come back with numbers than any other dealership had. When, after a ridiculously long time, he did come back, the sheet had the price of the truck at $12,999. We instantly saw red. What the hell?!?! Corey tried to talk to us about prices, but we weren't having it. We repeated that we had been very clear that we were not interested in haggling. We would not pay more that $140/month. He tried to make us think that was impossible, but we weren't having that either. He asked us what we would be willing to go up to. We said $140. He said we needed to be flexible. We said we did not need to be flexible. We had been very clear that we never intended to be flexible. He then went back into their stupid office.

He returned from the stupid office and tried to pass us off onto a manager. I don't remember the dude's name. He started in on some sort of spiel about how there was no way they could sell that truck at our price. We had seen all this negotiation crap before, but we had been extremely clear throughout this process that we were not interested in negotiating. We wouldn't have come if there were not trucks for us. Other dealerships had been honest.

While I was sitting here looking at this guy, all the frustration of the day and the truck buying experience came upon me at once. We had been totally lied to. I know it sounds silly to get upset that a car salesman lied to us to get us in there, but, honestly, we dealt with many dealerships before and after Right Toyota and they were all mostly honest. The most infuriating thing was that one person had (correctly) discouraged us from coming to Right Toyota, then Shitty John the Cowardly Manager called back and told us to come!

We kind of let this dude have it. I told him how we were not interesting negotiating. I told him how they had lied to us and how John had told us there was something for us and there was nothing. I told him how clear we had been the entire time about our budget. I told him how it was bullshit that Erin had driven all the way from North Phoenix and to Tempe and how they had dragged us all the way from Tempe to Scottsdale. He looked pretty taken back. I don't feel too bad about getting mad at him, because I made it clear that we understood it wasn't his fault, and I said that I would greatly prefer to have this conversation with John. This guy told us that John had gone home, but he said he would be happy to have me talk to John if he was there. It was incredibly shitty of Shitty John to pawn us off on his coworkers. He said, sheepishly he could give us the truck for no less than $11,999. He said I was "upset" so nothing he would say would make me happy. This was the last straw. I got up and said I we were going to dinner before I really lost my cool. We then left Right Toyota.

Right Toyota sucks. Check out their rather lengthy bio at Ripoffreport.com. Compare that to no real entries for Tempe Toyota and only a couple entries for Tempe Honda on which the issues have been reconciled.

After leaving Wrong Toyota, we hit up some other dealerships in the area and talked to some more weirdos. For the most part, even though the people were odd, they tried to be helpful and didn't try to lie to us to get us to buy any particular vehicle.

It's amazing how painlessly the whole saga ends. The next day we did some looking on cars.com and Erin found an 2002 Nissan Frontier Desert Runner at LeSueur Auto in Tempe. This place sells late model, used VW's, Audi's and Mini's. They had no real interest in keeping the Frontier, which they got on a trade in, so they sold it to us for Kelly Blue Book wholesale. We paid significantly less than $8000 for it. The funny thing is that Tempe Toyota had the same exact truck, same miles and everything for $11,000. That's actually pretty close to the KBB retail value of the truck. The dude at LeSeuer was named Dave. He was about our age. He was really laid back. He didn't seem like a used car salesman at all. We test drove the truck, they cleaned it up and we bought it. It drives better than the Tacomas we test drove at Tempe Honda - even the gold one! We're going to have it check out and get a tune up at Salem Boys. Even if we need to fix something on it, it will still be way cheaper than any of the other trucks, which weren't in any better shape anyways!

We totally win! Here's a picture of the truck! WOOOHOOO!!!



Where are they now?

Eric and Erin went on to drive the nice truck they got for cheap. They rule.

Marv called to say he had a beat up old Jeep. He's still a nice dude who's probably still driving his ambitious managers crazy.

The Gold Toyota Tacoma is, as of April 10th and according to their website, still at Tempe Honda. Go buy it from Marv. Tell him Eric and Erin sent you.

Robert, the manager from Tempe Honda, is still in denial about what "no-pressure means."

Sonny Stubbs from Big Two's used lot is still way cooler than you'll ever be.

Corey from Right Toyota wishes he was as funny as he thinks he is.

Shitty John the Cowardly Manager from Right Toyota still sucks. A lot.

Dave from LeSeuer is taking it easy.

Buying a Used Truck Part Three - The Silver Tacoma

Marv called me while I was at school and left a message saying that they had a 2002 Toyota Tacoma with only 90,000 miles on it with the "good rubber on it that you (I) like." That's his way of saying that the tires aren't bald. It was priced at $9500. Later that day, Erin and I went to check out this Tacoma.

When we arrived at Tempe Honda Marv wasn't around. He was off somewhere smoking a cigarette. We saw Robert and Marv was paged. As Marv approached, one of his crazy coworkers said, "Here he comes. You can tell it's him. He's the bald guy with the gut." I felt sorry for Marv.

After Marv arrived, we hopped on the golf cart and headed over to the shop where the Tacoma allegedly was being "gone over." It was not there when we arrived, so we stood around outside and had a very nice talk with Marv about his RV and the vacations he and his wife take with it. Erin and I have always wanted an RV, so we enjoyed this conversation.

When the truck returned it looked mint. It wasn't extended cab or TRD, but it was still really nice looking. Marv went over and talked to the mechanic driving the truck. Erin and I got the impression that he looked unconvinced. We went inside and Marv talked to the mechanic for a minute before we took the truck out for a ride.

This part was sketchy as we were unsure whether or not the truck had been check out by a mechanic yet. It seemed to us that the mechanic was taking a preliminary test drive when we got there and his demeanor suggested all had not gone well. We decided to try it anyways.

We had to test drive it separately, as it was only a single cab and Marv had to go along. I decided to go first. I pulled the truck out and it felt OK until I tried to accelerate to about 40mph, at which point it really started shaking. When I got on Route 10 and tried to go above 60mph, it really shook like crazy. Something was clearly very wrong with the truck. Marv said he thought it was a U-joint, which is part of the drive train.

Upon returning to the shop, it was determined that the truck was messed up and there was no need for Erin to drive it. I suggested to Marv that they give us the gold Tacoma, which was still there, for the price of the silver Tacoma and throw in the silver Tacoma's nice wheels. He asked Robert, but Robert said no. They tried to pressure us into buying something, as it was the end of the month and it would boost their numbers, but we said no.

We decided it was time to leave. We were kind of pissed of that they made us drive all the way down there without checking out the truck first. Marv apologized for the inconvenience. As we were trying to pull out of the parking spot, Robert was gesticulating emphatically around the wheel of the silver truck. I rolled down the window and he told me that he had seen a wheel weight fall off and that it was no big deal and probably the cause of the shaking. They said that they would call us about the wheel weight.

Later that evening, Marv called and said it had not been the wheel weight and it was, not surprisingly, something more serious with the drive train. He then told me that, because it was the end of the month, Robert had agreed to come down on the price of the gold Tacoma and set a "rock bottom" price of $9999. I was at school at the time, so I thanked Marv and said I would speak to Erin. Of course, the price drop from $10,250 to $9999 is only $256. I was a bit insulted that they thought I would fall for that silly trick. I later called Marv and informed him that the negligible drop in price was not enough to change out minds. Our monthly payment would still be over $175. I tried to get the price down one more time by citing the fact that they had never adequately addressed the issue of the body damage. As property damage adjuster know, something that looks like a small dent (not that the dent was that small...) can be a costly repair. Marv asked, but to no avail. He said he'd keep looking for a vehicle for us.

You'll notice how frequently I use some incarnation of the word "ridiculous." You haven't heard anything yet. Wait until next time when I write about Right Toyota in Scottsdale!

Buying a Used Truck Part Two - The Man Called Sonny Stubbs - The Saga of the Gold Tacoma

Last time I mentioned how Marv had called us back with a truck. Before I get to that, let me tell you about the Big Two lot in Mesa. After leaving Tempe Honda without the Jeep, we headed to a couple other dealership in the Tempe Autoplex. A nice man at the Hyundai place told us we should check out a used lot in Mesa run by a friend of his. He even tried calling ahead. We did check that lot out, but there was nothing there of interest for us that day.

Across the street from that dealership was the Big Two used lot. Big Two is the name of several big dealerships in the East Valley (all this is taking place around Phoenix, AZ, F.Y.I.). This used lot was ridiculous. There were a bunch of overpriced cars and nothing we wanted. However, we did meet Sonny Stubbs, car salesman extraordinaire. This dude was dressed like cowboy, only he was an African American dude, and he told me that I looked like Mack Truck driver. Obviously, he was kidding, but it was kind of weird. He then tried to sell us on a 1998 Ford Ranger with 120,000 miles for $13,000. We pretty much knew it was over at that point. However, we went inside with Mr. Stubbs anyways because he was so damn amusing.

First he told us that if we want a cheap car we should look in the obituaries. At first I thought he meant Craigslist, but he meant the real obituaries. Again, I'm pretty sure he was kidding, but the concept of check the obits, he explained, is that widows don't know how much their dead husbands' cars are worth so you can get them cheap. Moments later he said he knew where we lived and that he was coming over. Creepy. He does not know where we live. I made a joke that he should bring the beer. I laughed at this considerably.

Throughout our conversation, Sonny kept saying, "Hey, I have just the truck for you" or "I know what truck you'd like," every time he was referring to the overpriced Ford Ranger. He must have done that 5 or 6 times. He was a real character. We both kind of liked him because he was funny and didn't take his job too seriously.


Well, over the phone Marv told me that he had a "nice little truck" for me. We set an appointment for noon on Saturday.

That Saturday Marv called early and encouraged us to go down before our noontime appointment as other people were interested in the truck. We hit horrible traffic on the highway, so even though we left early, we still arrived there at noon. Not surprisingly, the truck was still there.

The truck was pretty nice. It was gold. It was a Toyota Tacoma TRD Prerunner extended cab. It had 91,000 miles and no price sticker. Marv greeted us in his usual laid back manner and we test drove the truck.

The truck drove pretty well, but there was some sort of weird rattling sound coming from the dashboard. Additionally, there was some damage to the driver's side rear quarter panel that extended onto the gate and the tires were bald.

Since our last visit to Tempe Honda, we had read this great article on Edmunds.com called "Confessions of Car Salesman" Our friend Damien recommended that article to us. The article is about a writer who goes undercover as a cars salesman and learns the tricks of the trade. Very illuminating.

Armed with the information from the Edmunds article and years of experience in the insurance industry handling negotiations (mostly Erin's experience), we sat down with Marv to negotiate on the gold Tacoma.

The first price Marv gave us was $13,999. We had previously told him we wanted monthly payments of $130, which is a loan of roughly $6500 at 7% interest. We agreed that we would say that we were willing to put $1000 down. Like any used cars salesman, Marv's manager had given him the numbers. He put the paper down in front of us. I just gave him a ridiculous smile and without us saying anything Marv got up, went to the manager's desk and came back with $12,999, a monthly payment of $249.

I guess I understand that there are some people who don't want to pay a lot for a vehicle, but when faced with a vehicle they want they are willing to pay over $100 more than what they originally intended. We are not those people. Not to condemn anyone, but you'd have to be an idiot to get suckered into that. I hate haggling over prices, but sometimes you have to try.

We began taking apart the price of the vehicle. First off, the price sheet had no interest rate on it. Marv told us he thought it was 10%. This was ridiculous, because there was a sign on the table that said that people with 700+ credit scores would be approved to 8.49. As our credit is in that excellent range, that was the interest rate we expected. We also gently reminded Marv that we were totally unwilling to pay more than $130/month so anything above that was wasting everyone's time.

Marv returned with his manager, Robert. Marv clearly hated haggling even more than us. Marv likes to talk about his family, tell anecdotes about him and his wife, talk about his RV, stuff like that, but not haggle about money. Robert assured us that they were "no-pressure" in a very high-pressure way. Erin says that the "No Pressure" tactic is very passive aggressive. You're intended to interpret their pressure as your own fear of pressure that's not really there. Unfortunately for them, we were not falling for that. Pressure is pressure, even when you call that pressure "no pressure."

Very quickly we had our 8.49 interest rate. Robert sucked up to us and praised our great credit. He pretended to intimate things about the cars sales business to us that we already knew, like how they can jack up the interest rate above what the bank approves you for.

Side note: If you're buying a vehicle and they run your credit and the bank approves your for, say, 8% interest, the car dealership financing can charge you 10% interest and keep the difference. It's totally legal, but really shitty.

Back to Marv and Robert. While Marv looked out the window, Robert came down another $1000. We remained stalwartly unwilling to budge, but we talked sympathetically and played along with the haggling game. Now, with our new interest rate, the vehicle at $230.00. Still ridiculous. Marv got us a Carfax report, which was useless because nothing had been reported in two years and 30,000 miles. That meant the 1/3 of the life of the truck was unaccounted for.

We continued to haggle. Robert told us that the suggested retail value of the truck was $13,295 according to Kelly Blue Book. We countered that we knew NADA to be lower, but Robert said that the West Coast uses Kelly Blue Book and the East Coast uses NADA. I have since fact checked this and found out that he was telling the truth. Still, this truck was a 2001 (7-8 years old) with nearly 100,000 miles, body damage, and bad tires. Not to mention that you shouldn't show people who want to spend $130/month something that costs $230/month because that's not what they want.

Citing the ridiculousness of getting us all the way down there to the dealership for something we can't afford and the damage to the truck we worked the price down to $10,750 and then down to $10,250. We also learned that in certain circumstances the dealership can opt to finance you through a credit union or other bank for a lower interest rate. Our interest rate was now at 7.49%. Robert said that was the best we could do anywhere. We have since disproved that, but I don't think he was intentionally lying. In the course of about 1 hour, we had talked the truck down nearly $4000 and 2.5% interest. Not bad, but the price was still $204/month. Unacceptable. In a last ditch effort to show good faith, we asked to have it calculated if we put $1000 more down, $2000 total, which took us to $185/month. While this is still not doable in our budget, it was more reasonable. Unfortunately, we wasted about 1 hour of our life trying to get to something reasonable. I understand that's how buying a used car works, but I resent having my time wasted all the same.

When it became evident that we weren't going to get the truck, Robert tried to sell us some sort of Ford Explorer thing. Marv gave us a ride over and chatted. I think Marv was glad to be away from the nasty money table. The Explorer was still being cleaned up. It was not what we wanted. We got out and looked at it. Marv looked too and understood it was not what we wanted. Marv is really no pressure. He gave us a ride back to our car so we could go eat lunch. As he was telling us to have a nice lunch, Robert came out and tried to convince us that we were crazy for not buying the truck. He tried to say that we could make sacrifices, like skip Starbucks, to account for the $50 difference between the prices. It reminded me of the scheister at Courtesy Chevrolet who tried to sell us a giant, junky truck.

We shook our heads too, and we were off to get some lunch.

A few days later, Marv called about a Silver Tacoma. Our experiences surrounding that Toyota will constitute the next chapter of our story.

Buying a Used Truck Part One - The Road to Tempe Honda - Introducing Marv

The time has come. Erin and I can no longer exist with only one vehicle. For nearly a year now I have been relying on my bicycle to get me around, but circumstances have changed and now we need more wheels. While we have not actually purchased a truck yet, our attempts to purchase the truck have become so ridiculous that I thought it might be fun to share our experience as we go along, hence this series of blog entries.

When we lived in Massachusetts we would never have considered buying a truck, but now that we live in Arizona, we have found that there are some benefits to owning a more durable vehicle. Since our move, we've really taken up hiking and camping as serious hobbies and there are lots of great hiking/camping areas that can only be accessed with a higher clearance vehicle.

We don't want an SUV. We're looking for something more practical. Our car, a Toyota Matrix, is a great hatchback, so an SUV might offer more room, but not considerably more room. We decided on a smaller size truck. Our favorite is the Toyota Tacoma. Our ideal vehicle is a 2002-2004 Toyota Tacoma TRD Prerunner extended cab. They have great clearance, decent gas mileage for a truck, they hold their value well, and they look rad. The one pictured above obviously has a serious lift, but even the regular Tacoma Prerunners have good clearance.

We have become quite savvy shoppers. However, let me take you back a couple of weeks and catch you up to speed.

One Saturday a couple weeks back, Erin heard an add on the radio that a Nissan place on Camelback Road was selling repo-ed vehicles. We went over and the inventory was pretty picked over, so we headed across the street to Courtesy Chevrolet. We told the salesman who was "helping" us what we were looking for. This man took our request very seriously. We said we didn't want to spend a lot of money, so he lead us to a lot about 1/4 of a mile away to a lot that looked like a junkyard. He then tried to sell us sundry jalopies, including but not exclusive to a busted Land Rover, some sort of a V8 Superduty, and an employee's Tacoma TRD. This was our first introduction with the Prerunner TRD. Love at first sight...

Needless to say, we did not buy a truck at Courtesy Chevrolet, even in spite of the salesman's assurance that we were making a big mistake in not paying $12,000 for a giant, junky truck that was probably intended for the auction.

Erin and I then headed over to Tempe Toyota, which is where we bought the Matrix. They were nice enough when we bought the Matrix, so we thought we'd try them again. They were still very helpful, but they didn't have anything in our price range that day.

Next we headed next door from Tempe Toyota to Tempe Honda. Upon arriving we were greeted by a friendly older gentleman named Marv. Marv has become an important and ubiquitous figure in our lives since then, so let me begin my drawing a character sketch of our friend Marv.

Marv is retired. He retired from a very successful business career, moved to Arizona, got itchy in retirement, and so now he sells used cars at Tempe Honda...for fun. Marv is the best used cars salesman from the buyer's perspective because Marv doesn't HAVE to sell you the car. If you don't buy anything, no skin of his back. He's just happy to chat, which is cool because he's fun to talk to. He does try, only he's honest, so his trying is actually helpful. However, we have noticed that Marv's honesty and nonchalant demeanor exasperates his sales manager. This is also a good sign. Erin and I are tough customers (literally) and instead of getting frustrated and giving up on us, Marv says he admires us and he tries quite hard to get us what we want! Marv's the best.

However, our first ride with Marv was ill fated. We found a 1999 Jeep Wrangler on the lot of Tempe Honda and it was reasonably priced, so I decided to try it out. Only problem was that it was a manual transmission. Erin doesn't drive manual. I haven't driven manual in probably 8 years and I was never any good at it in the first place. Nevertheless, I hopped in the driver's seat, Erin climbed in the back, and with Marv riding shotgun I lurched and jerked my way around around the block. It was not a comfortable ride, but I only stalled it once and the clutch survived. We did not purchase the Jeep. Marv was very reassuring during the ride, but when we arrived back at the lot he did not seem to hold the same hope for the improvement of my shifting skills he displayed during the ride. Perhaps his confidence was a survival mechanism more than a sales technique...

After we parked the Jeep, no one could figure out how to remove the key from the ignition. They put the thing in all the different gears, messed with the emergency brake and the clutch, turned it off, turned it on, pushed in on the key. At one point there were 4 people trying to get the key out including me. Finally, I noticed that there was a button behind the ignition that you had to push in and we removed the key. It was ridiculous.

Marv took our info and it wasn't long before he called back to tell us that he had Toyota Tacoma TRD Prerunner extended cab. However, I will leave the saga of the Tacoma for my next blog entry.